S2E17: How to Write a Great MBA Admissions Essay. Tips from Ex-Director of MBA Admissions at Wharton
In this episode, we'll explore the essays required by three top MBA programs: Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton.
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Today, we're diving into a topic that's close to my heart – MBA admissions. As former Director of MBA Admissions at Wharton, I could talk about this all day.
In this episode, we'll explore the essays required by three top MBA programs: Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. These essays are critical in shaping your application and demonstrating your fit for your chosen school. Let's get started.
We now offer essay review services. Get more information at http://thomascaleel.com/services
Key Highlights
Why Pursue an MBA? MBA programs aim to understand why you want to pursue an MBA and why now is the right time in your career. They also want to know why their school is the ideal fit for you and how it will help you achieve your short-term and long-term goals. Self-reflection is crucial before beginning the application process.
The Grandmother Test: When crafting your responses, consider the "grandmother test." Can you explain your reasons for pursuing an MBA clearly and concisely to someone who isn't familiar with the process? Simplicity and clarity in your writing are key.
Deferred Admission MBA Programs: Some MBA programs allow students to matriculate directly from undergraduate studies. Consider whether going directly from undergrad or waiting a few years aligns better with your career goals and the school's culture.
Standardized Tests (GRE vs. GMAT): Choose your standardized test based on your background and the specific program you're applying to. Some schools prefer the GMAT for its quantitative rigor, while the GRE can be suitable for non-traditional candidates.
Recommendations Matter: Select recommenders who know you well and can provide detailed insights into your strengths and weaknesses. Avoid chasing prestigious titles and focus on those who can genuinely speak to your abilities.
Conclusion: The MBA admissions process is multifaceted, and crafting compelling essays is just one piece of the puzzle. Whether you're targeting Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, or any other top MBA program, the essays serve as a powerful tool to communicate your aspirations and fit for the school. Remember to stay authentic, follow word limits, and never resort to essay-writing services or AI-driven tools, as they can jeopardize your application. We'll be covering more aspects of MBA admissions in future episodes, so stay tuned for valuable insights. Good luck on your MBA journey!
About Thomas
Thomas is a parent and alumnus of the University of Pennsylvania. After earning his MBA at the Wharton School in 2003, he moved to Silicon Valley. For three years, he was director of admissions and financial aid at Wharton School. He worked closely with admissions professionals, students, alumni, and professors to create the best possible MBA class.
Thomas has been an entrepreneur his entire life in the fields of finance, agriculture, wellness, and sporting goods. As the founder of Global Education Opportunities, he works with diverse and underserved communities to help them become successful college students. Thomas started the podcast Admittedly because he is passionate about demystifying the application process for parents and applicants.
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Hello, and welcome to the admittedly podcast. I'm your host, Thomas Caleel. And today we're going to talk about something very near and dear to my heart. MBA admissions, a lot of people are asking about MBA admissions, they run concurrently with undergraduate admissions. And we get a lot of questions about the essays, how important are the essays? What kind of a role do they play, in the admissions process? And then what do I talk about how to answer these questions?
So we're gonna look at the top three schools today, Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton, I'm gonna talk through their essays and give you a sense of what they're what they're trying to get at.
And the important thing to keep in mind here, too, is that pretty much all of the MBA programs are trying to figure out the same thing about you, right? Unlike undergrad, where it's kind of a natural progression from high school to college, with the exception of a gap year, in general, most students follow a pretty standard progression. MBA is a little bit different, you're playing in a third dimension, which is time, right? So they want to know why now is the right time for you to go get an MBA because there is a cost, right? There's the cost of the MBA, there's the opportunity cost.
So all the schools want to know from you the following things, get a pen, write this down, it's very important. Why do you want an MBA? Why is now the right time in your career? Why is this the right school for you? And how will this school help you achieve your short-term and long-term goals? And none of these questions should be a surprise to you, right?
Because these are things that you should be thinking about this is a significant investment. It's two years of your life. It is lost earnings. It is in most cases, a hefty tuition check. So you need to step back and ask yourself these questions before you even begin the MBA application process in general. Now, as you're answering these questions, I want you what I what I usually encourage applicants to do I call it the grandmother test.
And that's if you sat down at the table with your grandmother. And she said, How are you dear, you look great. And as I'm going to eat, tell me what you're up to. And you say, well, Grandma, I'm gonna apply for an MBA, and she looks at you and she says, You have a great job. Why on earth would you do that?
And so you want to explain it clearly, concisely, you're not using big fancy words, you're not trying to create these huge complex sentences, you really wanted to put it in a way that somebody can understand clearly and completely. And that's very difficult, right? Writing something that is concise, that is clear, that summarizes those five questions is not an easy thing to do.
So I encourage you to think about it very carefully. This is not a process, you should rush. And it's something that we want to practice and practice, right our drafts, the same discipline that we had when we were applying to undergrad now. There are deferred admission MBA programs, there are opportunities to in some cases, matriculate directly from an undergraduate program. So I want to talk about those just very quickly. Those go directly to the heart of why is now the right time. There are different reasons why going directly from your undergraduate or two years after your undergraduate might be the right fit for you. And the average age of an MBA is about 26 to 28 years.
Obviously, there's an age distribution all around candidates who are significantly older and candidates who are younger. In my experience, and I pioneered some fairly radical programs at Wharton when I was running admissions to bring in young, early career candidates at the time, it was radical, you know, sometimes it worked.
And sometimes it didn't, it really depended on the individual student, you have to realize that if you are coming in at 22, 23 years old, with almost no work experience, you may not have as much in common with your classmates, you know if you're interacting with 28-year-olds, 30-year-olds who have started businesses or worked, you know, senior position companies or go through the investment banking, management consulting, grinder, you may not be able to connect with them on the same level as you could if you went you know, four or five, six years out of undergrad and because the network because those friendships and relationships really are a key component of the MBA experience. You need to step back and think about it from an investment perspective, right? When is the right time for me to go because you don't get two bites at this apple? You can't go get an MBA and then go back and get another MBA. Yes, I know. Sometimes people do.
But that's generally an MBA, let's say in another country, and then they want to come back and get a top MBA. Do it again from the US and that is sometimes possible, but in general, you get one bite at this apple, so make it count. Right? Okay.
So when we think about the MBA application process, you have your exams, you have your GRE or your GMAT get a lot of questions about which test is the best test. I think the important thing to add, is, what is the best test for me because the GRE is a more generalized test, it's less quantitatively rigorous. And so you want to look, first of all at the program you're applying to, because some programs have a very, very intense quantitative bias. That might be something like the University of Chicago, the Wharton School, or MIT, they're applying analytical, rigid, rigorous analytical methodology to everything. And so they want to see, you know, will you be successful? Can you really dig into the numbers?
And if you have, let's say, a liberal arts background, maybe, maybe you worked in banking, maybe you didn't maybe worked in consumer products, I would almost nudge you in the direction of a GMAT, just to say, Hey, listen, you know, I did take calculus in undergrad, I got an A. And I can really do this.
And here's the proof. If you are really a nontraditional candidate, let's say you were a literature major, then you worked at a nonprofit, or government, and you're really coming in and saying, Look, I know what I don't know, I know, I'm not great at this quantitative stuff. But I know why I want to do this, then you could get away with the GRE. The GRE is an exam that says, Look, I have the aptitude, and you demonstrate other ways that you're willing to work hard.
And then the admissions committee is going to make that decision. Generally, you want to look at a cut-off around the 80th percentile. But I wouldn't aim for the ADF I would aim higher. The GMAT, like the LSAT, is not a measure of intelligence, nor is the GRE, and it's one component of your application, right? Yes, they're going to look at your transcript.
I would say that if you have not taken calculus in undergrad, or if you took calculus and didn't get, let's say, an A, B, or better, you might want to take that online. For example, Berkeley has a great extension course go to a rigorous University, a well-respected university, and take that course for credit.
And include that it really gives the admissions committee the confidence that you can succeed because the worst thing is taking somebody who has this amazing story and all this potential, and setting them up for failure if they just can't handle the classwork, because at the end of the day, yes, an MBA is about it's about networking, it's about building relationships with your class, it's about learning from your classmates, but it's also school, you're going to class you're learning, you're learning some very advanced topics and analytical frameworks and advanced math.
And, you know, everybody struggles a little bit in something, and you want to make sure that that struggle is not overwhelming, and that you don't fall behind, because you're busy every minute of every day with recruiting and social activities, and all the other fun things that go into an MBA program.
But you do have to pay attention to your academics. And it's the admissions committee's job to make sure that they are not setting you up for a very bad outcome. So obviously, recommendations are very important in this MBA process, you know, who should you choose to talk about that in another podcast, because it can get a little bit complicated?
Generally, you want to choose the two people or three people who know you best, some schools will allow for a peer recommendation, great. But it's very important for you to look at who knows you best. So that is your day-in-day-out manager, right? Not the CEO of the company, unless you work directly for the CEO. A lot of people will say, okay, who's the most important person I can get? Because the admissions committee is going to be very impressed by this person.
And I promise you, the admissions committee is not impressed by that person with the admissions committee is disappointed in you for exercising what we call poor judgment. You have people who know you well, and you choose not to use them.
And that does not reflect well on you. If you are in a unique situation where maybe you're, you don't want to let your manager know that you're applying for an MBA could jeopardize your career prospects at the firm. You might get fired if the job market is a little bit tough. You can note that in the application and then ask people around your manager if you can do that. Entrepreneurs a lot of times say well, I don't really have a boss. Great. You can go to your board. You can go to a client, somebody who knows you in a business capacity SD and who can speak intelligently. And clearly on your behalf to your strengths and weaknesses. A lot of other people will ask, Well, does it matter? If I get somebody who is an alum, an alumnus, or an alumna of the school?
Generally, the answer is no. We're looking when you're looking at an application, you're looking at recommendations, you really want a detailed overview of this person's capabilities. And by and large alumni will say, Oh, I love this person, I would love to have them in my section, cohort learning team, whatever it might be, that you know, as an admissions officer doesn't really add a lot of information, right? Because I don't necessarily know you, as a recommender, I don't know what you look for, in a classmate.
And so I would say, don't feel like you're at any disadvantage at all, if you don't know, alumni. And by the way, you know, if you are in an industry like management, consulting, investment banking, private equity, consumer goods, marketing, where you're surrounded by MBAs, you are, of course, going to be held to a higher standard, right?
So if I have somebody coming out of an active combat zone from the military, maybe they've been deployed on a submarine for nine months, I don't think that they've really had the opportunity to network with other MBAs from the school and learn the culture, right?
So we're going to view their application differently than, let's say, a McKinsey consultant or golden and banker, where you know, every time you stand up, you have no line of sight on at least a half dozen top MBAs.
So keep that in mind as well. Don't be lazy, go out, take people to coffee to lunch, if you can, or just sit down and chat with them about their experience. And these firms all have, you know, very clear recruiting pipelines and processes. So take advantage of that and make the most of it.
But let's get to the essays because the essays in MBA admissions are very important, they're there for a reason, they're not something to take lightly. And they're something that can really have a big effect on the outcome of your candidacy.
And before you ask, no, the essay is not the most important part, all of these parts need to work together, you can be admitted because of your essay, and you can be admitted despite your essay, and I think that's very important, right? So people are admitted to programs, MBA, undergrad, or otherwise, despite a poor essay.
So it's very dangerous to go back and rely on other people's essays. Because you might look at an essay and say, oh, this person got into my top, my top school, and they wrote this essay. So this must be an example of a good essay. And really, if you looked at the notes in the file, a notes file might say, Wow, they really missed the mark on this essay, but everything else is fantastic.
So let's take a chance on them. So be very careful coming from an outside perspective on where you put your trust and where you know how you judge a person's candidacy. Okay. So let's look at essays for Wharton first, and then we'll move on to Stanford, and then Harvard.
And as we're looking at these again, really, really, really important I want these written down and taped on your wall above the desk when you're doing your your MBA workout. Why do I want an MBA? Why is now the right time in my career? Why is this school the right place for me?
And how will this school specifically help me achieve my short-term and long-term goals? If you find yourself when you're answering those questions, if you find yourself parroting anything on the website, if you find yourself using the phrase world-class faculty and diverse student body, I really want you to dig deeper, right? Your first answer on these is never the right answer. You need to really this is self-reflective. It is introspective, you can be immensely successful without an MBA. An MBA is a big commitment.
So you are writing an investment thesis. Right? Well, why are you investing this time and money in yourself? And why should the school invest? One of its very precious and very limited seats in you and your story?
So if we look at Wharton, right, what's the first question? How do you plan to use the Wharton MBA program to help you achieve your future professional goals? You might consider your past experience short and long-term goals and resources available at Wharton. Okay, why Wharton, and how will it achieve help you achieve your short-term and long-term goals? So we need to be very clear there about why you want an MBA. Right? So this is what I this is what I need. Right? And I usually advocate working backward, right?
So this is where I'm trying to go. This is my ultimate goal. In order to get there, I need to do this. In order to do this. I have this gap in my skill set, right or my education and I need to go to an MBA program to bridge that gap. Why Wharton? Well, because of X, Y, and Z, I'll tell you personally, that when I applied to business schools, I chose Wharton for two reasons. One, because the quantitative rigor terrified me, I had been a relatively successful entrepreneur who lived and worked around the world.
And I knew what I didn't know, I knew I needed to learn finance and accounting how to build value, and how to unlock value in a company. I knew I needed a quantitatively rigorous course. But I knew that that was not my strong point. And so I chose Wharton because of the learning teams because I said, Well if I'm on a learning team, these people will help me they will have my back. And it's a much more collaborative experience. I know what I can contribute to the learning team. And I know what I need to take.
And so you really need to go in and dig, dig, dig, dig, see yourself in the program, go into the course catalog, go into the extracurricular activities, think about where you are trying to go look at that arc, right? And then distill that into this essay. Now, you want to be careful not to have too much overlap, right?
Because essay number two says, taking into consideration your background, how do you plan to make specific, meaningful contributions to the Wharton community that talk about life, both inside and outside of the classroom? Right? Are you somebody who is going to be really, really involved academically? Are you going to be working with professors trying to work on research? Are you going to be starting a business and using your classes, professors, and peers to help you start the business? I had one person in particular, a dear friend of mine, in my cohort, who announced on day one, that I was starting a business, I just sold a business. I'm starting a new one.
And I'm going to use every single resource and every single class, every single question I ask is when to drive to how do I better my business, and he wasn't kidding.
And we all kind of laughed in the beginning. But then we really had a lot of respect for him, because we're like, okay, he knows what he wants. And he's getting what he needs out of this, right? And it wasn't just, it's not just your classes, it's your peers as well. So my second year, I was trying to acquire a business. And so I was reaching out to friends of mine who had done acquisition, finance, who had done leveraged buyouts, and they love helping, right?
And so you're getting together, and you're doing these late-night sessions, and I'm getting advice that I could never, in a million years pay for, because, you know, you're talking about top-tier consultants and accountants, bankers, lawyers, we're all having a lot of fun and working on a live project together.
So think about, you know, look at the particular schools for Wharton, are you interested in follies or leadership ventures or Leadership Fellows, you know, all the things that make that experience unique, you really want to distill it, and your needs to be a blend of, of things that track with your stated interest and path. But then also, it's okay to take a risk step out of your comfort zone, and say, You know what, my very dear friends, still, one of my very best friends from Wharton got to school and said, you know, of all the things I'm doing, I've there's a chance to row crew. And I've never had a group before and seems like fun.
So every morning, you know, five in the morning, he was out down at Google getting into a boat, rain or shine. So feel free to challenge yourself, feel free to explore within you know, the general path that you've decided to take. There's a reallocate essay that basically says, you know, what's changed in the past since you've applied, and that's very important, you really want to talk about your growth and things that you've changed and orientation doesn't need to be a huge change.
Because again, you don't really know how close you came, it may have been a matter of degrees, or it may have been a matter of miles. And so you don't need to go tear your whole application apart and come up with this whole new approach. You can just say, you know, I really kind of doubled down on this, and I said that I wanted to learn this particular skill.
So I've been working on it outside of Wharton, but really getting into school is going to help me accelerate that growth. And then there's an optional essay.
And so optional essay, you know, really usual thing extenuating circumstances, super important. Do not write something in this essay, unless you have something that is truly additional information. Don't use it as a way to regurgitate your resume, don't use it away to cram some other school's essay in here. Don't try and just push more information on the admissions committee because that again, is an example of poor judgment and it will count against you. It's not positive at all.
So this is where you explain Hey, I couldn't choose my direct manager because of this or the direct manager that knew me for years left and so you know, I'm that's why I have this recommendation from somebody who's not in my company because I had to reach out to them but they still are the ones who know me the best or I'm an entrepreneur and this is how You know how I tried to work my way around this traditional recommender system, or if you had an area of weakness on your transcript and undergrad, unexplained gap, those kinds of things, okay, but very important not to just use that as a way to shove more information down the pipeline. Okay. Next, we move on to Harvard HBS. As we review your application, what more would you like us to know, they give you a lot of room here.
And that is both freeing and also very, very dangerous because they're not giving you many guidelines here. And so I would really urge you to stick to those five why right, this is why I want an MBA. So why now is the right time in my career? This is why Harvard is the best school for me. And this is how it's going to help me achieve my short-term, and long-term, long-term goals. And really important here, right? Don't overthink or overwrite this essay, it is best to answer the question in clear, concise language. I know I use a grandmother example at the start of the podcasts.
And for me that holds, right so somebody who's read literally hundreds of 1000s of essays, fancy, complex, jargon-filled essays fail miserably, they fail very quickly, people don't want to read them, it shows that you really haven't done the work. If you know something, if you are an expert in something, and in this case, an expert in yourself and your goals, you should be able to explain things clearly, compellingly, and in a way that is easy to read understand, and digest.
So make sure you do the research, make sure you understand what I'm talking about three very, very different programs here, Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, three very different experiences, and they're not going to be the right fit for everybody. And a lot of people get caught up in, oh, you know, how many? How many tops? You know, am seven programs can I get into and that's not the goal here. The goal here is to get into the one program, that is the best fit for you. So think carefully about this question. It's a great question. But it's very dangerous.
So Stanford, the famous Stanford essay, what matters most to you? And why? Very important, okay? In this, they're trying to get to the core essence of who you are. Right? What is important to you what has helped shape your perspective? And we can tie that to, you know, why do you want an MBA? What are you trying to achieve short term long-term? How does it help you? Right? So if you say that you want to go into politics, why do you need an MBA for that? Right? If you want to go into the nonprofit sector? Why do you want an MBA for that? I can answer that question. Talk about that question all day. I love that question.
But for you, it really comes down to you. So what matters most to you? And why is it breaking a cycle of lack of education in your family and being able to get that out into the community? Is it being able to be in a position where you can run a family business or step into politics in your country? Or, you know, is it you know, do you want to talk about something that is meaningful to you, outside of your career aspirations? This is, I think, a beautiful question. It really drives self-reflection, there is no shortcut around this question. If you have not done the work, if you have not sat with yourself and sat with this question, you will never answer it effectively.
And then, you know, the nice thing is, then they give us a B, which is why Stanford. And so you know why Stanford really, really, really gives you the opportunity to talk about the program. Right? Stanford has a very different structure than both Harvard and Wharton. So talk about that talk about the location, the opportunities, the opportunities across the university, you know, how are you going to go there, and just drink so deeply from, from this experience? And I know a lot of people think, well, it's two years, I've got all this time, you have no time, you will finish your two years, you'll think that it lasted both a century and a second. At the same time, you will look at all the things you did and all you're going to be able to think about is Oh, but there's all these things that I did not do.
So they want that clarity, you know, obviously, you have the freedom to adjust. You have the freedom to move in different directions while you're in the program. And that's the beauty of the MBA program. And certainly, you know, it's interesting, I get a lot of flack in the comments about, you know, oh, you MBAs are soulless, money-grubbing awful, you know, awful creatures, because you all go in and you come out and all you can think about is me Making money.
And, you know, I think that's unfair. And I think that I think that when you look at the applications very interesting, so you'll get the applications coming in. And people have a very diverse set of interests and goals. And they really do want to go into government and politics, and the nonprofit sector and start their own businesses.
And you know, a couple of things happen. One is a little bit of a herd mentality. So you get there, and you're surrounded by all these super bright people who are saying, I want to go into banking, consulting, private equity, venture capital, like, oh, and in some cases, you might not even know what that is particularly, right.
And you start to look at it, you're like, wow, there are really smart people there, they take really good care of you, they'll pay off my loans within two to three years, you know, maybe I can go learn from that for a couple of years, to, let's say, two, three years, make some money, clear my student debt, and then go out and do what I want to do with a clean slate and this set of expertise.
And so I encourage you not to judge people too harshly for what they do immediately after an MBA, I would look at what they're doing 510, maybe 15 years out. The other thing that was very interesting to me was that I remember being a student at Wharton, and the Social Impact Management club would bring in these large, large foundations, I remember the Gates Foundation came one day, and one of their very, very senior executives, was addressing us. And somebody raised their hand and said, Okay, you know, what do I need to do to get hired by you, you know, out of Wharton, and she said, the best thing you can do is go work somewhere else, right? Just because we have no shortage of smart people who want to come work for us. And that's great. And we love them and they come they make a difference.
So if you come to us with an advanced set of skills that we can use, we can leverage that with our resources, and you can make an impact that is far greater than just coming.
And you know, starting fresh out of business school, that was a very, very interesting approach, right, your network, your reputation, all of these things, your experience, you can really bring those to bear in a way that is really, really accelerated when you return to a different industry. So for the Stanford essay, that's 1050 words. You know, word counts, sometimes within the application will literally cut you off. Other times, it'll give you a little bit of leeway. I would say in general, do not go over more than 10%. It's not that admissions officers are counting the words per sec.
But when you're in the rhythm, and you're reading, reading, reading you, you know when an essay is over, and if it's egregiously over, you just look at that, again, as poor judgment and lack of preparation and foresight. It's not hard to stick to a word literal, it is hard to stick to a word limit. It just takes discipline and time.
And so generally, when you see an essay that overflows, it's that the person really hadn't taken the time to do their application thoughtfully. Finally, you know, Stanford does have a piece of additional information, extenuating circumstances academic experience. Stanford goes ahead and just says it clearly, this section should not be used as an additional essay. And that is very, very important. I talked about it before it goes for every single school. If you jam an additional essay into the additional information, it will backfire on you spit-tack your late spectacularly. Stanford also has a very interesting, few caveats. It defines feedback versus coaching, right and says, you cross that line when any part of the application excluding letters of recommendation ceases to be exclusively yours in either thought or word. And this is very important in the era of chat GPT, multiple schools have come out and put statements on their website saying, that using chat GBT to write your essay is in violation of the statement of application integrity. And we view it as the same as plagiarism.
And we can and they oftentimes will revoke your admission, it is not worth it. Not only does it generate an essay that looks good to you, and your couple friends that you show it to, it will be immediately picked up by an experienced reader and it will count against you and it also just is not going to do the job.
And if you look at a question like what matters most to you and why there's no way that Jack GBT can write that essay effectively that is a humanist experience as a humanist essay, and, and so be careful, right? Stanford goes on to say in their application appropriate feedback occurs when others review your completed application perhaps once or twice, and apprise you of omissions errors, or inaccuracies that you later correct and address. After editing is complete. Your thoughts voice and style remain intact. Inappropriate coaching occurs when you allow others to craft any part of your application for you. As a result, your application or self-presentation is not authentic.
And that is real. You'd be really important, I can tell you as an experienced reader, that when I'm reading an essay, I can tell when somebody has redlined and inserted words, right, the flow changes, the tone changes, it's very subtle. You know, as an as a, what's a layperson will not notice it, you'll think you've smooth it out. You know, it's not that I can say this is where Susan edited. And this is where your manager puts something in, this is where your consultant puts something in.
But I'll know that it, I'll know that it changed. And that will again, work. work against you. And Stanford closes bold italics, it is improper, and a violation of the terms of this application process to have someone else write your essays. Such behavior will result in denial of your application or revocation of your admission. They take this very, very seriously have people gotten away with it, of course? But keep in mind that it's not just this moment in time. If it comes out that you fabricated parts of your application, they can revoke your admission at any time.
And I can tell you, a personal story. When I was a student at the Wharton School, I was on the MBA ethics committee. And we had a case referred to us several days before graduation, where someone in their application had had fabricated parts of their application. In the end, we are in the case where we heard the testimony. We reviewed the documents and in the end, the faculty committee, recommended the faculty committee, the student have their admission revoked, and the faculty committee overwhelmingly unanimously agreed.
And so this person invested two years of their life quite a bit of money and was dismissed from the program about two days before graduation. So this is something that is taken very seriously. It's not worth it. So besides being yourself is a great opportunity for you to do the work and tell your story. There'll be more on MBA admissions. I welcome your questions. And look forward to talking about interviews when we get to that portion of that cycle.
